The State of Accessibility in the Modern Business Environment Webinar Transcript
Intro 00:00:00 You are listening to the Accessible World, the podcast dedicated to equitable access to digital document and printed information for people with disabilities.
Scott Williams 00:00:27 And today’s topic, we are going to be talking about the state of accessibility in modern business environment. That’s a big topic today, Ariel, that, for the podcast, and luckily we have, the Man of the Hour that’s gonna be joining us. The one, the only, Jonathan Kaufman. For those of you that don’t know Jonathan, he is a former policy advisor to the White House on diversity and, disability. Professional speaker, anthropologist, psychotherapist, executive coach, and policy architect providing strategy work to Fortune 500 companies, government agencies, and nonprofit organizations, and writes for Forbes. So, Jonathan, do you have any time in the day for yourself, <laugh>?
Jonathan 00:01:11 No, it doesn’t seem to me that I have any ti…. I always call myself the professional stranger. People always ask me, well, what do you do for a living? And I say, well, anthropologists always say we’re the professional stranger, but I live at this intersection and that’s the world. I have the habit. And I think, obviously the disability space is a big part of that. So I sort of work in and around the margins.
Scott Williams 00:01:39 So one of the things that we wanted to do in this podcast today is that, so obviously, you know, not everyone that’s gonna be listening to us had the pleasure of hearing, Jonathan speak at CSUN, this year in California. UBut one of the, the, the topics that, you know, you, you talked about during your, your presentation as well as just, you know, we spoke about at length, at the event. And as I introduced, is that there is this state of accessibility, and, and its perception in the modern business environment. And Ariel, you and I have had discussions on things like, what are the drivers? Is it compliance? Is it doing the right thing in the sense of doing well while doing good in in corporate America? All of those kind of things. So guys, that’s where I wanna start the conversation today. And Ariel, I’m actually gonna ask you first, as as the CEO of Allyant and, seeing, all things that happen internally, just even from a sales perspective, from an an environment perspective out in the world, what are your thoughts on the drivers that you currently see in how people are, are addressing or, or engaging with accessibility services or accessibility mindset in general in sort of, we’ll call it corporate America? I know that, you know, there’s varying degrees of what people consider corporate America now. Let’s start there.
Ariel 00:03:06 Yeah. And thanks. Thanks, Scott. And welcome to the podcast, Jonathan. So from my experience at Allyant, the primary drivers we still see consistently today is litigation or compliance, right? It’s, it’s a requirement that companies have to abide by, and they’re not so much doing it out of the kindness of their heart or that it’s the right thing to do. A lot of the impetus for moving accessibility through the business is driven by a concern or a risk. We’re starting to see that needle shift a bit towards embracing the fact that not only is it the right thing to do, but you have a consumer base in any organization that’s loyal to you. Statistics show that, low vision blind individuals are extremely loyal to companies that cater to their needs, that caters to their user experience. And not just that individual, but that individual’s family members are also loyal to that business. And this community of low vision blind individuals is growing exponentially every year. And they have tremendous spending power. And so that’s a user base that organizations should be looking to tap into to generate that loyalty and that, brand equity with that pace of, of consumers. But unfortunately, we’re not quite there yet. There’s still quite a, a road to be traveled for people to think in terms of that. There are very progressive companies who are embracing that concept. And it’s starting to have some of the push down from the top levels and trickling down. But for the most part, we still see a lot of it’s driven through risk mitigation.
Scott Williams 00:04:51 So that’s an interesting point because one of the things, and Jonathan, I, I’m, this, I’m gonna interject for you now, is that Ariel and I have a lot of conversations around this, is the, as the person that’s responsible at Allyant for, for Marketing communications and, and the, the, the, you know, demographic research, those kind of things, my stats show actually something different. Uh, where it is, the, the latest stat that I have is about 65% of companies are moving towards accessibility because it’s the right thing to do as opposed to, you know, we’ll call it the, the, the, the corporate nature of risk and compliance and those kind of things. Now, from your perspective, having worked with so many companies and, you know, being a, you know, a policy advisor and you know, policy architect, all those kinds of things, what are you seeing in the, in the world when you are working with companies?
Jonathan 00:05:41 Well, I agree with both of you. So I’m gonna come at it from an integrative point of view. I think foundationally it is compliance, but I do think that in a way we sort of look at it, we have to say, not only is it compliance, that’s the foundation, but we’re also finding that E S G or the idea that’s saying, okay, there’s a social value to this, but then there’s a third rail. And the third rail is the idea of saying accessibility actually breeds creativity. It breeds the opportunity for new business operative revenue and new avenues to create opportunities that were didn’t exist before. And that in itself is as I think, sort of music to the ears of many because it says, wait a minute, there’s an economic value. And because there’s an economic value, we don’t only have to look at it in terms of compliance, we don’t only have to look at it in terms of doing the right thing, but you know, this social value of that’s related to the economic drivers is a win-win. And I think that’s ultimately where it’s going. And we sort of have to get over, I mean, you know, the, the f word, the idea of fear and the idea of compliance, because that limits one in terms of the capacity for growth. And so ultimately what accessibility provides is, and is syno and should be synonymous, is with long-term growth.
Ariel 00:07:24 I agree. Jonathan, sorry to to interrupt you there, Scott, but you know, regarding the statistics you quoted, Scott, you know, I would be interested to know is that, is that accessibility specific or is that ESG? Is that DEI? Because, um, accessibility is a subgroup of those, um, those acronyms and, you know, sometimes people don’t necessarily consider it. Um, you know, lots of d I’ve seen lots of DEI initiatives and lots of ESG initiatives that don’t, um, acknowledge that accessibility is a component of that. And it’s not because of a deliberate decision, but it’s a lack of awareness.
Scott 00:08:02 Right, right. And I think, so did you mention that, because this is where Ariel and I tend to be, I guess, psychically connected, cuz that’s exact questions that’s gonna ask is that we live in a fairly I’ll, I’ll call it, you know, look, I mean, you can’t turn on the television these days, you know, on any station, any, anywhere without seeing, you know, the, the, the push of, um, sort of the, the socio-political nature even and around, you know, the DEI stuff and those kind of things. And it’s, there’s, you know, the concept of intersectionality and all those things that are, are socio-political drivers. Oddly enough though, Ariel, to your point, Jonathan, I’m gonna pass this back to you as well, because you kind of see the inside of companies from a different viewpoint than we potentially do. Is it that accessibility under itself, under that more sort of sociopolitical umbrella? Is it being ignored? Because we see a lot of other types of inclusion, which fantastic. Um, but accessibility seems to be one of those scenarios where at least from what we see does not gain the same amount of press coverage, I guess, or the, you know, from those kinds of things from, uh, a, an inclusive environment. So, right.
Jonathan 00:09:15 That I, I think part of the problem has always been, and sort of it’s coming late to the, and the idea of saying, okay, we’ve talked about DEI issues, we’ve talked about race, we’ve talked about gender, and now disability is sort of there, but what makes I, I always sort of use the phrase, disability is synonymous with human variability. And when you talk about human variability, you, you sort of, you know, relate that to nature, the diversity of nature. And it’s a characteristic, but we need accessibility in many ways, and people don’t actually understand. I always tell people, okay, how, you know what, I sort of talk to people and say, how many people wear glasses, how many people text? And that people sort of, or they use, um, you know, um, contact lenses. These are all accessible tools. So it’s framing it in a different way and to understand that accessibility as we define it or how it’s being constantly derated in a lot of ways is part of our daily existence. Now we have to see in and say, all right, this is another opportunity to take accessibility to sort of the next phase of the technological revolution, but it’s something we all use and it is the notion of thing. How do we socialize it into our daily business practice? That I think is going to be sort of the next step. And we, and part of the issue is that we don’t know that we use it. We don’t know, we use accessibility on a day-to-day basis. So it’s shining that light on it and saying, here’s the technology, whether it’s high tech or low tech that one can use, that’s just part of the entire package. And here’s a better, you know, if we’re just gonna use the word widget widget, here’s a better way to do it. Here’s a better widget. Here’s a, and so you’re constantly developing a whole sort of business ecosystem. And that I think is where it really needs to go because it’s auditor, this umbrella, uh, DEI it is under this. I mean, I think DEI and a accessibility has to go hand in hand with all of this.
Scott 00:11:33 Ariel, one of the things that you’d mentioned is that, you know, we have this, um, viewpoint, I will call it just from like, you know, obviously dealing with all these companies that we, we work with all day, every day in all different aspects of, of accessibility. And you know, there’s the point that it’s, there is still a little bit of that fear. There’s the compliance and risk management. And it goes back to also, Jonathan, what you said is that there’s a limiting factor sometimes when it’s, it’s looked at in that realm. Um, I guess, you know, Ariel, from your point of view, the, you know, seeing the, the risk in compliance scenario pop up again and again and again and speaking to some of our very large customers who are, you know, they’re big financial companies, everything else, that limiting factor, like, do you see it still almost daily as that it is a compliance checklist, like, we have to achieve X on this particular, call it silo of accessibility, right? Because we see it also, there’s, there’s, you know, the, the digital side of, of websites, there’s digital documents, there’s the print side of braille and, and you know, large text. All of those things that seem to be, at least from my point of view as well within alliance, is that they become siloed, they become potentially checklist. Is that, is that kind of how you see it?
Ariel 00:12:56 Yeah, you know, the, the way I can tell that it’s not ingrained in any organization is quite often where we’re engaging in discussions with customers or prospects. Finding the person in charge of accessibility is a needle and haystack exercise in many cases. Right? And, you know, I think about, you know, job positions, like customer success managers, you know, before the subscription world came around, there was no such concept, right? And then the subscription economy economy came around and this concept of, hey, we need a person who’s dedicated to doing this sort of activity. That role is created. And from there on, um, it manages the whole subscription process. So I think of accessibility like that, right? It is such a, it is a specialized role. Um, it’s at a very important role within an organization. I would expect, I would hope that in short, in the short term, we would start to see more people heading up accessibility divisions within organizations. And there are companies that have that, who have chief accessibility officers, um, or departments dedicated to that. But we don’t see enough of it. Um, and just winding your way through that maze of people who are, and you en you inevitably end up in the lap of someone who is, has been thrown into accessibility, right? It’s, it’s not my job, but I’ve been told
Scott 00:14:27 they’re not even volunteered. They’re voluntold. <laugh>.
Ariel 00:14:40 Yeah, exactly. Right. And so I think, you know, when we start to see ubiquity in that role across larger organizations, then I think that will be the recognition that, hey, this is an a really important and, and the companies recognize that it requires that dedicated initiative.
Jonathan 00:14:50 Right? And what’s interesting, based on that comment, Ariel read, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal, I think about two weeks ago, and it was talking about accessibility and the, if you do a search of accessibility jobs, that term has jumped 78% over the past year. So accessibility is becoming hard. It’s becoming more socialized Yep. As a key driver in any business. And the Wall Street Journal article was really very specific about that and how it’s becoming more commonplace. We’re not there, but the fact that it’s jumped 78% agreed.
Ariel 00:15:32 Yeah, absolutely.
Jonathan 00:15:34 So it’ll be interesting to see as we get to the end of this year, I mean, even sort of the end of quarter to sort of see what’s happening that the growth is happening. But I also think at the same time, even as the growth is happening, there has to be more, I think, you know, to, to sort of use a Hollywood term more sizzle connected to it to say, yeah, this is something that’s important and it has value and it’s part of the business parlance that, that I think can generate revenue, can generate growth, can generate creativity and build aspects of the business that you haven’t even thought about. I think what an interesting thing is, I mean, obviously look, there’s been a lot written about AI and people’s fears of ai. I look at it as a tool and I think we just sort of have to take a deep breath, but I think in terms of accessibility, there’s a lot of opportunity there.
Scott 00:16:36 Let me, let me ask both of you this, because it’s, I I think this is two sides of the same coin, Ariel, like when you mentioned, it’s like, you know, trying to find somebody that’s responsible for accessibility <laugh> in a company that’s like, you know, needle in a haystack. And then Jonathan, you’re saying that, you know, wall Street Journal is saying that there’s a massive rise in accessibility jobs even with that rise of accessibility jobs. And, and what I was saying before as far as the, the, the siloing of, of accessibility, right? It’s like there’s, there’s the website scenario, there’s the digital document production scenario. There’s like, for all these silos for both of you, do any of these people that are responsible for accessibility in those silos talk to one another? Because I don’t think they do <laugh> and especially the bigger the company gets, right? Like that’s, that’s where it can get tough, is the person that’s responsible for creating accessible statements would never talk to the web team in a million years.
Ariel 00:17:33 So I I, you know, I I think of accessibility as, as being, you know, two components, right? I think when you have a role such as a chief accessibility officer or someone who is in charge of accessibility with an organization that’s a cultural driver, right? Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s changing mindsets, right? It’s, it’s developing a methodology and a philosophy for driving accessibility thought through everything an organization does. So not necessarily the person who would say, yeah, this document over here is not accessible, so let me help you fix it or let me put you, it’s, it’s driving that cultural change and then the people within the organization who are responsible for those, the delivery of those communications, once they are steeped in that culture, naturally understand that accessibility is a next a part of the job that they do. So it’s not like, you know, that you talked about the silos. Yes, there are silos, you know, there are people in charge of document production, digital production, website production, things like that. And that’s not expected to change. What is expected to change is that they, within their framework of developing this content over time, just naturally build accessibility into it because it’s been driven through the organization, which is why it’s also important for the C-suite to be bought into the concept. So it can all just filter through the organization
Jonathan 00:18:58 right? And, and part of my job, I think a lot of it is sort of shifting to that. And look, my training as a social scientist is about cross-cultural communication is about saying, how do we understand mindset? How do we understand culture and how does that weave itself throughout the entire organization and say, okay, we have this group of people that focus on accessibility, but why is it accessibility shouldn’t be seen as the sort of spec child, but rather in essential this part of the essential DNA of any company and here’s why. And then it’s thinking about it from a sort of cross, you know, cultural communication standpoint. How do these people within the accessibility realm talk to other people throughout, whether it’s from the C-suite on down to say, we, you know what, we can help you and vice versa. We also need to understand what is it that you need? How do, how do we amplify the culture of an organization? And it’s a lot of the work I’ve done over the last 20 years, but in specifically now, I think that those areas have become even more needed than ever. And there’s a want for it ultimately.
Ariel 00:20:19 Jonathan, I’d be curious to know, you know, have you seen that cultural shift over the last few years?
Jonathan 00:20:25 Yeah, I mean, I think, I think I’ve seen the, the want, the desire, and particularly, I mean, from startup companies to larger companies, you know, I mean, and we can sort of, they obviously name a few Google being one, Microsoft’s being another, certainly they’re pushing a lot of the sort of messaging of it and said, and also creating capacity to say, this is okay and it makes sense, and here’s why you need to do that. So, you know, there is peop there are organizations that are sort of trendsetters in this way. And once that happens, then you can think about it from a perspective to say, oh, it’s okay. You know? And, and I think that’s moving. And I also think we’re also in a generation now that’s much more open about, except, you know, gen Z and beyond. I mean, I think millennials as well, but there’s an openness to it. And as comp and these sort companies are developing, it’s like, okay, accessibility should be a part of it. It needs to be critical part of the, again, the DNA of any organization.
Ariel 00:21:40 Yeah. And, and you’re right, it should, it should move from, you need to do it till you want to do it.
Jonathan 00:21:47 Correct. Because as I said before, there’s so many business opportunities that come out of it, and that’s how people have to sort of continue to be thinking about it. You sort of move from the idea of compliance to now the essential aspects of gross.
Scott 00:22:06 Do you find as well as that, one of the things that we look, I mean, and rightfully so, we tend to focus on, um, call it the external, right? So it’s like companies, it’s like, I need to make sure my website is accessible. I need to make sure that we can provide accessible statements. I need to make sure that, you know, we’re creating documents that are accessible, that are going to be going to our customer base. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but rarely do we ever hear, I’ll say, out in the world at least. And it’s, you know, again, like, I mean, I have to have my finger on the pulse of, of all things accessibility all the time. I don’t really hear a lot of chatter as far as in the, you know, whether it’s the the social media sphere or just in the news of, of also ensuring that companies are, are doing the right thing for their own employees. And sometimes that’s where it starts as well. And it’s like, Jonathan, I’m curious because, you know, obviously you work with a lot of companies on that side as well, from like the consulting perspective. Like, does it come up, does it like, or is it, does I often wonder, is it, is it approached from almost, I will call it like an HR perspective of these three individuals with our organization need to have accessibility tools. So we check it off and here you go, does it like, but the rest of the company doesn’t recognize the fact that, well, they’re, they’re equal employees. Why would they not be able to read something that everyone else is reading or whatever it may be like, is, is there, is there still that disconnect as well?
Jonathan 00:23:44 I, I can tell you without naming names, I’m working for one of the largest corporations in the world at this point, and they’re going through a major cultural transformation of trying to find a disability blueprint. And one of the key aspects of that is thinking about the internal organization, and I’m gonna sort of use a line from Reid Hoffman who talks about building an alliance. You know, it’s the idea of saying what is the alliance between the employer and the employee? And part of that alliance is to create a feeling of psychological safety, where if you say, organizationally speaking, that we’re creating a inaccessible work environment, because this is really about the future of work. And, and we’re gonna create components, particularly in a decentralized work environment, you know, nobody is going to the office as they once were, where they’re sort of meeting day to day. People are working from around the world, they’re working on different schedules. Um, actually the New York Times Magazine this last week was all about the future of work, and it’s off, one of the articles was about sort of the 24 hour work cycle with companies. But if you build that alliance to say, as an organization, we are committed to creating an accessible, now accessible means to all. I often find that, oh, it’s only for people with disabilities. I, this is where human variability, because I, I’m a firm believer that one of the things that we learn about disability is either we ha ha or know someone with a disability. We have a disability, we are maybe going to be, you know, dealing with a disability later in life, or we’re a visitor in some way. We break our leg, we break our arm, you know, it’s, nothing’s permanent, but, but it is all part of the human story. So if we create an accessible work environment, and there are multiple components to that, then what you’re doing is you’re shoring up the alliance and, and, and, and what you are sort of saying verbally and nonverbal, because there’s sort of, in terms of how you approach the culture of an organization is just enormously beneficial. And then you, you go from the internal, because you can use that as a, as a sort of laboratory to say, what can we do for our customer if we’re doing it internally? How can this impact what we do externally? So to win-win proposition
Scott 00:26:29 did you think that one, like, like here’s, here’s the philosophical question of the day, right? Does the external drive the internal or does the internal drive the extra?
Ariel 00:00:26:27 So I think, you know, from my point of view, the, well, I won’t answer the question directly, but I’ll tell you what my thoughts are about internal versus external <laugh> about that. Um, so internally, an organization can assess the impact of a lack of accessibility within their organization rather easily, right? So someone, it, it, it impacts somebody’s productivity, right? If you can’t access your workplace in an efficient manner, it could access communication in an efficient manner. It ultimately impacts your productivity. So as an organization, you have a vested interest in ensuring that your employees are productive, and therefore the natural instinct is to make, ensure that you create an accessible environment. Um, that there’s somewhat of a disconnect when it comes to the external world because there’s, there’s a lack of understanding of what your consumer experiences, right? Because it’s not a, they don’t view it as a, necessarily, as a direct impact on their business if someone externally can’t access their communications. Um, and so that, I don’t believe that connection occurs. Um, but I think the more organizations experience it in internally and they more buy into the concept internally, then it can be used to create a framework for external communications.
Jonathan 00:28:04 Right. And I agree. Yeah, no, I agree. I think, look, this is a conversation and I think one of the things, at least a lot of the work I’ve been doing more recently, particularly in the time of covid and post covid, well, we’re never post covid. This, my, my father’s an immunologist, we’ll never say post covid, so I shouldn’t say that. Um, but in this time, sort of in this new normal, and I, one of the key factors is there is a conversation happening, and it should be a dialogue so that there isn’t just one way, it’s the internal versus the external. No, they are in some way, they’re connected. So that conversation needs to continue to happen and one feeds into the other. So I, I, I, I think again, it’s a back and forth, and that’s sort of where I will sort of end it there because I feel that that conversation continually happens that ultimately, what do you want to come out of that is developing different tributaries for the organization, whether it is internally for greater productivity, greater work, um, uh, uh, you know, a sort of more effective work environment, a safer work environment, so on and so forth. And then what opportunities in terms of the business, in terms of growth come out?
Ariel 00:29:36 Yeah, and it’s not homogenous, right? I mean, there’s, there’s, companies are so, you know, some are far along in their journey, some companies have not even begun their journey, right? So there’s a wide array of companies out there. So to paint them all with the brain, the same brush is, is not fair whatsoever.
Jonathan 29:53 right. And I, and then Ariel, I lo I love that term journey because I think everyone, where are you in the arc of your journey and everyone is at a different place.
Scott 00:30:04 So let’s, let’s, uh, summarize this podcast today. I’ve got a question for both of you to kind of end this. I will say, um, and it’s interesting as we move into, there’s been so many different, you know, uh, call it technologies that have kind of popped up in the last six months that are really, you know, garnering all the attention in the news, AI being one of them. Um, but not just even focusing on that, is it, what do you think is going to be, whether it’s technological or social, what do you think the biggest driver is going to be even in the next six months that is going to make the biggest difference and impact on how people engage with and implement accessibility practices?
Ariel 00:30:53 Like to go first, Jonathan?
Jonathan 00:30:55 Sure. There, there’s a couple of things that come up, but I sort of muse as examples or thoughts. One, I think look the in, we’re sort of inundated with technology and, and I think that one of the key drivers, at least I think as far as how does it impact the world around us, I, I’m very involved with a lot of organ, particularly organizations, um, private equity firms that are interested in funding, um, adaptive tech companies, you know, that the, the world and space of adaptive tech, whether it be from robotic space to sort of toys, it’s those types of things. But there is a value proposition. I think one of the greatest shows to watch about business is either, depending on where you live, is Shark Tank or Dragons Den, you know, you can gain a lot of insights into sort of where the cultural zeitgeist is and to understand how accessibility plays a role has very much to do with not only what the technology does, but, but what it does socially and how it provides. I mean, these are tools. And so I think it’s important to understand the, the sort of cultural underpinnings of what we look at business of the, the idea of social good and social value, as well as the idea of the technology itself. I, I’m, I’m very bullish on, on the accessibility space, and I think it’s a wide, I mean, right now it’s the wild west. It’s wide open for possibility. And I think that it’s now a matter of figuring out for companies in a lot of ways to get past, you know, to where they are, to understand where they are on their journey, and to explore how to mine this, um, not only this enormous disability economy that’s growing, but also to understand the other spaces that accessibility can play in, in the other sandboxes. So it’s exciting.
Ariel 00:33:22 Yeah, and from my viewpoint, I think technology naturally is going to be a huge driver. Um, I’m not sure if it’s in the next six months though, Scott. Um, I think outside of technology awareness is really the prime driver this, um, that’s needed. So I speak to many people in the C-suite, um, today, and it’s surprising how often when I explain what I do and what our company does, uh, people say, what, so what is it accessible? What does it mean? Like, well, how, what do you do? And, and I have to explain how it works, right? And, and they go, oh, that’s cool, right? So it’s, it’s, it’s not that they’re ignorant, um, it’s just that they, they haven’t, they’ve heard the term accessibility, but they don’t exactly know what it means and how it fits in and what the benefits are and so forth. And so just driving that awareness is, uh, it, it is going, is going to drive a sea change ultimately, whether it’s in the six, next six months, I don’t know. But there’s two parts to awareness, right? It’s, it’s also the consumer understanding, being aware that they have the right to access content like everyone else, right? And putting those demands back onto the organizations that serve them to say, Hey, I need this, right? I need this to live a life, my life. Um, and so I don’t think there’s enough awareness within the consumer economy that accessibility is a requirement, that it’s something that’s made available to them and that they have the right to ask for it. So I think awareness, driving it from both sides is going to help move things along.
Scott 00:35:00 The one thing I often wonder too, and this is what I, I know that we, we we’re trying to stick to a certain timeline, but it’s there, there’s something that kind of came up. We talk a lot about technology, and one of the things is, you know, as, as we all sit here, we’re, we’re in front of our laptops and tablets and phones and, you know, for, for all the listeners, it’s like, you know, the first conversation we have before we actually record our podcast is everybody shut off all their devices across the board. So nothing’s going ding in the background and those kind of things. Um, there is accessibility components built into most devices now, um, the one thing I often wonder is that, is that a good or bad thing from the corporate perspective in the sense that, cuz I know if I have spoken to people about this, is that, what do you mean we have to make things accessible at our company? Don’t, don’t devices just do that by nature. Now, my iPhone has accessibility components, my iPad, my laptop, my, and it’s like, do they separate themselves out of sometimes the more, um, important aspects of accessibility because they just, there’s a perception perhaps because of technology that it’s like, well, isn’t this all taken care of? Can’t somebody just use their, their devices? Isn’t that how this works? And I, I know that that’s one of those things where people are starting to potentially wake up to that no that doesn’t solve all things, but do you think that’s also a part of the issue? I see, Jonathan, what,
Jonathan 00:36:25 well, okay, I’m going back to 1995 when Bill Gates came out with his operating system, right? Yes. Bill Gates came out with the, the operating system, came out with another one a year after, and the year after, there was always iteration. There was always growth. And I think that one of the things that’s really important is that accessibility in this sort of business ecosystem is not static. It’s constantly evolving, it’s constantly growing. So there’d be more and more opportunities. I look at it and say, at least from, from the technological side, and consumers, they understand, oh, or they’re buying an iPhone. My, you know, my kids buy an iPhone every year, or, you know, or perhaps, you know, maybe another year or they’re buying a video game, you know, Madden, oh, Madden, you know, it’s coming out, you know, constantly getting something that’s upgraded. So this should not be something we’ve already been socialized to this, it shouldn’t be unfamiliar territory. That’s how I look at it.
Ariel 2 00:37:36 I, I think it’s a great thing that you know, that because, you know, everyone has a phone, um, or practically everyone has a phone and, and the more visible, um, accessibility components are to people, it’s, it’s helps to build the awareness, right? That, you know, it’s becoming more ubiquitous in deliveries. So it can only help to increase awareness. It doesn’t, it doesn’t, it doesn’t take companies off the book for ensuring that whatever content you view on your phone is accessible, etc. But at least lets people know that this is something that is at least required.
Scott 00:38:13 And I think that’s really what it comes down to, right? Is like, as we said, I mean, it’s from the evolutionary state. I think there’s, everyone is going to be on a journey that, that wherever they may reside within that timeline. And Ariel to your point, I mean, awareness is, is what is really one of the biggest driving factors, is ensuring that people actually just even understand the concept of it. Cause a lot of the times we all work at the speed of business. We’re all trying to just do, you know, our jobs daily and, and you know, as more and more things, I will call it get piled on top sometimes it just, you know, can get lost in the, in the fray, so to speak. So I think it’s just the more awareness that everyone drives, the better. Uh, that’s the end of our podcast, guys. I’m gonna let you off the hook so I don’t, uh, have to torture you anymore today. Um, I highly suggest that everyone check out, uh, J Hoffman Consulting. You can find out all about Jonathan. We’ll, uh, make sure that the link is in the podcast overview on our site and, uh, all the other platforms, obviously check out Allyant as well. You’ll, uh, see what we, uh, we can do for your companies out there. Ariel, thank you so much for joining us. As always, Jonathan. It’s been a pleasure as always. It’s always great hanging out with you.
Outro 00:39:22 Thank you for listening to the Accessible World podcast. For information regarding solutions for the equitable access to digital documented printed information for people with disabilities, visit us@alliant.com.
